Curse

Kyp Jade · Mar 05, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Id rather see an Aura nerf than a gale buff tbh

I would also probably still run shock, since its easier to knocklock someone.

Vaga · Mar 05, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

If you guys didn't notice, warriors basically aren't playable if you want to win tournaments. The dominant builds don't feature them at all, they feature dervishes and assassins. Do you want your money for prophecies back?

Wyat Hawke · Mar 05, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

If you guys didn't notice, warriors basically aren't playable if you want to win tournaments. The dominant builds don't feature them at all, they feature dervishes and assassins. Do you want your money for prophecies back?

So we counter overpowered builds by also letting balanced builds become overpowered?

Nice.

Popo · Mar 05, 2008, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyat Hawke

So we counter overpowered builds by also letting balanced builds become overpowered?

Nice.

Lol, and in the process give those overpowered builds another tool.

Kaon · Mar 05, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and that's where your argument stops making sense kaon. buffing gale to 5 energy will NOT give the game a positive swing. warriors already have very strong tactical ability and really do not need any more. give them more, and they step beyond being powerful to being overpowered. that is BAD for the game.

buffing gale to 3 sec KD, while keeping the 10 energy is the way to go.

Their tactical ability is minimal compared to what they can and should.

Also, gale at 3 second knockdown does nothing but buff gimmick spike builds like dervspike or eurospike. That change can only be for the worse.

Vaga · Mar 05, 2008, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Yeah I do want balanced to be the most powerful because I prefer for matches to be decided on how my team plays during the match rather than rock paper scissors.

For everyone arguing it would be better if ANet would just balance the new classes, you're right it would be better and no one would have any problems if an update came that balanced every class and every skill in the game perfectly. We (the people who actually gvg) don't think this is very viable so Gus is suggesting a good alternative to this.

Not that I think 5e gale would be overpowered, but I'd pose the question so what if gale warriors were overpowered? The worst case scenario I can see is that balanced builds are too strong for a month. That's hundreds of times better than sinsplit or dervspike dominating everything.

Also when people are saying nerf expansion classes out of gvg, because of how those classes are designed they could basically say "Make them not overpowered" and it would have the same effect. These classes only see play when they're overpowered.

DreamWind · Mar 05, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

There are 2 suggestions here that I feel like defending.

First, the removal of classes from competitive play. I know people are suggesting reasonable changes for these classes and saying it is more likely to happen. Maybe, and I can understand that argument.

But people have been posting since the classes were released that they were broken, and suggesting changes. I have read thousands of these skill balance posts (sadly I know), and guess what? The classes are still broken today, and probably even more so!

There are many people that have known since Factions/Nightfall were released that the new classes were broken. The classes have ALWAYS been broken. Assassins, Rits, Dervishes, and Paragons have always always always been broken. I can't even comprehend anybody arguing against that point unless they just didn't play the game back then.

These classes will never be a part of a good game experience for me. Adding the classes was like adding pieces to the game of chess. The game used to feel fresh and clean. Then they added pieces that can teleport across the board and kill your queen in one hit.

Second, is the buffing of gale. I know where the people that are suggesting this change are coming from. There are apparently some people on this forum who don't realize how skill oriented that skill used to be and just saying "that would be broken!!". Gale in the hands of a bad player was a bad skill.

Was it powerful? Yes of course. But it was GOOD overpowered, and it fit into the game perfectly. That is, the player showed how powerful it was. That is the big difference between old metagame and todays metagame (that is dominated by degenerate builds from the newer classes I might add). Todays metagame is ridiculously easy and stupid. Old metagames were far more intensive.

Sorry for my long post. Its probably not adding much but I'm bored.

Wyat Hawke · Mar 05, 2008, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Gale worked so good (balanced, that is) in the past because the skills we had weren't affected by the power creep we have now. Reverting Gale could've worked in the old days, but now it's just going to be used for gale-locking a target and spiking them down like a drink of tequila. Gale isn't a good skill all by itself, it's what you use it with that makes it so powerful. And I don't think powering up Gale is the right way to do it, adding even more power to something that is overpowered is just illogical.

Popo · Mar 05, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Their tactical ability is minimal compared to what they can and should.

Also, gale at 3 second knockdown does nothing but buff gimmick spike builds like dervspike or eurospike. That change can only be for the worse.

So instead of giving them an extra knockdown second you are suggesting to let them spam it a lot easier?

I'm surprised so many people buy into this idiotic propaganda that Gale makes everything skillful and balanced all the sudden. It does require skill, but it just doesn't fit into what this game has become as perfectly as people like to describe.

Byron · Mar 05, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Gale was different. Gus might say I'm bad, fine. Gale existed at a time when boon prots were lol heals and easy energy management; rof was a 110+ point heal and still rof-ed. And on top of that, some guilds were running 3 monk backlines, probably with a dedicated red bar guy. The only way to get any decent pressure was to gale a monk. That's not the way things are right now, though.

Let's talk about something else.

wuzzman · Mar 05, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

lol. Now there is good overpowered and bad overpowered. this just keeps getting funnier. Is there anything stopping anyone from bring 4-5 copies of gales? No. The other team would be dead long before the exhaustion starts to matter. unless the other team has ward against stability, there isn't much you can do. balance teams are already stale so your telling me that along with block wars we have to play anti-kd wars with ward of stability and 2-3 copies of aura of stability? Might as well say "I want to play legoway in gvg GO GO GO"

Divinus Stella · Mar 05, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

I dont think buffing gale will help, its already powerful enough and makes its way into most team builds.

Every time something gets buffed it breaks the game for another month, id much prefer the balance changes to bring balance.

Greedy Gus · Mar 05, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

One thing not addressed in the OP is the power creep in caster spike skills, which presents a serious problem in rebuffing Gale. I'm not sure you can safely rebuff Gale with caster damage in its current form.

Good point. The spike situation is probably the biggest factor in me preferring getting gale back on warriors instead of strengthening it on mesmers & eles. Although I do think 10e 3s gale would still be better than what we have now, to reintroduce more proactive disruption (assuming GoE doesn't become the de-facto elite), and the skills to be tweaked should be the problematic casterspike stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

On a more general level, I don't think it's possible to predict the result of large sweeping changes like this through theory alone. It would certainly be a different game, but I don't think anyone can predict whether it would be a balanced one. That's not to say these are bad ideas, but don't assume that they'll immediately lead to a balanced game.

Indeed, and I tried to convey this sentiment in the final bullet point in the opening post. I think the notions of finality & closure have to do with more of the large-scale design aspects, and naturally if any sort of big changes take place there needs to be a careful watch for minor skill power tweaks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Gale was different. Gus might say I'm bad, fine. Gale existed at a time when boon prots were lol heals and easy energy management; rof was a 110+ point heal and still rof-ed. And on top of that, some guilds were running 3 monk backlines, probably with a dedicated red bar guy. The only way to get any decent pressure was to gale a monk.

I'm not saying you're bad, I'm saying you don't have the correct perspective to see this picture. What I just quoted shows that you don't really know what was going on in early 06. We had a $100 thousand dollar world championship with 5e 3s gale that didn't cause negative exhaustion, and another $100k world championship with a 10e 3s gale. Guess how much it broke those games?

wuzzman · Mar 05, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Gale was different. Gus might say I'm bad, fine. Gale existed at a time when boon prots were lol heals and easy energy management; rof was a 110+ point heal and still rof-ed. And on top of that, some guilds were running 3 monk backlines, probably with a dedicated red bar guy. The only way to get any decent pressure was to gale a monk. That's not the way things are right now, though.

Let's talk about something else.

there was no reason to bring a 3 monk backline back in the boonprots day. It was called "over healing" which back then was a real problem cause it was a colossal waist of energy. Geez a lot has changed huh.

C2K · Mar 05, 2008, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Buffing Gale and Blackout will just lead to more gimmicks. I thought the whole point of this thread was to create a "balance over gimmick" environment. And for those that don't think the core professions can develop a gimmick build, air/obs spike, ranger spiritway, and IWAY say hi.

Kaon · Mar 05, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

Buffing Gale and Blackout will just lead to more gimmicks. I thought the whole point of this thread was to create a "balance over gimmick" environment. And for those that don't think the core professions can develop a gimmick build, air/obs spike, ranger spiritway, and IWAY say hi.

ARGUMENTS OR DONT POST!

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

lol. Now there is good overpowered and bad overpowered. this just keeps getting funnier. Is there anything stopping anyone from bring 4-5 copies of gales? No. The other team would be dead long before the exhaustion starts to matter. unless the other team has ward against stability, there isn't much you can do. balance teams are already stale so your telling me that along with block wars we have to play anti-kd wars with ward of stability and 2-3 copies of aura of stability? Might as well say "I want to play legoway in gvg GO GO GO"

Hell yes there's "good overpowered" and "bad overpowered." But considering all your posts ive ever read you're too stupid to understand that. Also gale won't be overpowered at 5e.

Vanquisher · Mar 05, 2008, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

That is true. People never saw anything wrong with the blindbot, except that it was The only elementalist you could run in competitive GvG. But, considering it will never come back (mainly because it's too easy to strip enchants now) what could be done to the current ele, setting the MBlast issue aside?

Mass enchantment removal on an Ele would always destroy them. Basically any skill that removes enchantments from the other team from the Dervish lines would need to be looked at (mainly Rending Touch).
That said, Water Eles were often underused. I never liked full-Water because it just didn't do enough, but hybrids were often incredibly useful.

Quote:

I also saw a lot of people talk about Natural Stride on this thread. See, natty stride does two things: it's a speed boost and a defensive stance. Blinding Surge does two things: it's shutdown and raw damage. Weapon of Remedy does two things: steals life and removes a condition. Eviscerate does two things: big domage and a deep wound.

What's the difference between these skills? Natty stride isn't elite. I'm stretching it, but I'm certain you can see my point.

Duration/Recharge too good! Needs a slight tone-down. And Blinding Surge hardly does good damage, considering you need to use it to blind and you're not going to be wanting to blind casters (unless they're that N/W).

Hell, I'd argue Remedy needs to be nerfed in terms of recharge too.

wuzzman · Mar 05, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

LOl. So it won't be overpowered at 5e? Kaon you just made me rofl. Are you just arguing this for the sake of arguing this? Did you even play the game when gale was at 5 energy? or are you just assuming that because it was "prophecies meta" then obviously it was balanced.

Energy burn and Energy surge that took away 10 energy was balanced promoted weapon swaping and actually knowing how much energy said monk had, blackout was balanced cause there was no way in hell you didn't see that coming, but gale? KD at caster range that can be run on everyone but a monk? Is there too much epeen juice in your eye and I'm sure your epeen isn't as big as it should be to be that stupid and think your right.

DutchSmurf · Mar 05, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Good point. The spike situation is probably the biggest factor in me preferring getting gale back on warriors instead of strengthening it on mesmers & eles. Although I do think 10e 3s gale would still be better than what we have now, to reintroduce more proactive disruption (assuming GoE doesn't become the de-facto elite), and the skills to be tweaked should be the problematic casterspike stuff.

You can't really buff gale while not strengthening its use on mesmers and eles tho. Both can already take and are already taking gale. Any buff on it would just encourage them to do it even more. With that many ways to abuse gale in gimmicks, encouraging a buff to it just because it worked great 3 years ago doesn't sound like a good idea. Some people here seem to think a buff to gale would only effect warriors. While I see all kinds of possible disaster coming out of it. Lets face it, gale in its current state is a perfectly fine skill. Is there really a reason to take the risk of making a perfectly fine skill more powerful? Except for the weak argument that it rewarded skill 3 years ago?

Tho what I really want to know is why gale became the main discussion point while the rest is far more important.

moriz · Mar 05, 2008, 11:04 PM // 23:04

natural stride is mostly balanced. it could certainly take a longer recharge though.

remember the pvp preview weekend, when natty stride had a 8 sec duration and 10 sec recharge at 10 wilderness? now THAT was overpowered.